Beach Detecting could be out-lawed? Long

[TinSM]

AmadorAl said:

Just more government intrusionism, Tom. This will probably annoy some people, but as long as people embrace liberalism thes types of policy will continue to proliferate.

A few cases in point are the motor cycle helmet law, the seatbelt laws, burning of leaves laws, burn barrel laws and camping area laws (concerning USFS and BLM lands). As long there is a special interest group or other radical groups who can get the ear of politicians some one is going to have their freedoms intruded on.

Amador Al - This has nothing whatsoever to do with people embracing "liberalism" - by definition your statement contradicts itself. Where in the world did this idea come from [?] - blaming everything on liberals and "liberalism".

San Francisco is liberal as can be; indeed, Golden Gate Park does not enforce laws (against public sex) that Good God I wish they would, but I've never, ever, not even once, been stopped from metal detecting in Golden Gate Park although there is a law [ordinance] that prohibits metal detecting in that park. The letter of this law is ignored...ignored by a liberal spirit which has the law enforcement authorities in that park (the cops) not bothering to enforce it.

I'm hardly a liberal on very many matters yet I must question your blaming everything on liberalism.

Not trying to tamble at all - I'm sure we'd get along great - but please allow me to disagree on this one.

[TominSalinasCA]

T in SM, it does seem to be the conservatives who are for less laws, and liberals who are for more laws. Sorry, I couldn't resist your bait But here's what I'll do: next time I see those tree-huggers out on the beach watching to make sure the sea life isn't bothered, I'll ask them if they voted for Bush or not. hahaha

[TinSM]

TominSalinasCA said:

T in SM, it does seem to be the conservatives who are for less laws, and liberals who are for more laws. Sorry, I couldn't resist your bait But here's what I'll do: next time I see those tree-huggers out on the beach watching to make sure the sea life isn't bothered, I'll ask them if they voted for Bush or not. hahaha

Well, if one wants to be a profound simpleton about things, you may be right.

What does sea-life have to do with the point/counterpoint vis-a-vis liberalism/metal detecting. The logic presented fails me.

Sorry

[TinSM]

TominSalinasCA said:

T in SM, it does seem to be the conservatives who are for less laws, and liberals who are for more laws. Sorry, I couldn't resist your bait But here's what I'll do: next time I see those tree-huggers out on the beach watching to make sure the sea life isn't bothered, I'll ask them if they voted for Bush or not. hahaha

Pray tell, from where on earth [then] are all these laws that insist on invading bedrooms and private lives coming from? Liberals? Better re-examine that one, friend.

A Conservative with Common Sense

[AmadorAl]

Well, TinSM, a brief comment on your post. You say there is an ordinance against MDing in GGP, but it is not enforced. If that is the case ,why does it exist in the first place? I submit it is because of "liberalism" trying to micro-manage everyones lives.

Another example of libreal intrusionism would be the State Air Resources Board ane there burning restrictions. They have decided with all their big city wisdom that burn barrels needed to be outlawed thru out the whole state. Even in remote rural areas. More intrusionism.

Another case is auto emission inspections. Even if there is no hint of auto polution in rural areas. They have decided in all their wisdom that you still need emmision inspections to operate your vehicle. More liberal intrusionism.

Another example is the discussion of what "marriage" is. Most people know that marriage is between a man and a woman. That seems to be unacceptable to some so they want to have the definition change to mean whatever they want it to mean. More liberalism.

Now you have Tom in Salinas, he has a sweeper business. He no doubt has to operate under pretty strict guidelines imposed by liberalism. One would expect they get more intrusive every year, and some make marginal sense at best.

[RALPH]

"Profound simpleton".........you crack me up.........

I wish I could get in on this little discussion, but I must
plead ignorance on these matters, in fact, if it doesn't
slither, scurry, walk on four legs, or sh*t in the woods,
I probably don't know much about it.........

Can't wait for the next rebuttal.....

I'm Lovein' it..........

R~

[Wayne]

Ralph,

Now I have to laugh ....and I also have to ask just how big is your spoon...stirring spoon that is???


Be kind and HH all,

WT

[TominSalinasCA]

T in SM, you ask:

"What does sealife have to do with the point/counterpoint vis-a-vis liberalism/metal detecting...."?

See my original post, page 1. Do you see that I pointed out that people (in specific, me, as an md'r on 2 occasions) have had run-ins with these naturist-tree-huggers types? I wondered if they might use the historical part, to stop md'rs from hurting sand-crabs, or whatever their blather is. You're right, there's not a necessary connection between historical preservationism and sea-life. I suppose someone could be all for the sea-life preservation, but care nothing about people removing historic artifacts. BUT, they are all in the same law that these types adore. That is where I drew the connection. The people I see out there parading this stuff are the granola tofu tree-hugger types. They love that stuff (nothing wrong with preservng the environments). But I'll bet ya 10 to 1, if anyone showed these self-appointed patrol people, the section I quoted here, and then pointed over to you, T in SM pit-digging on MT's secret beach, how long do you think it would be before they would zealously uphold that section? Wanna give it a 12-pack beer bet, that you wouldn't last 30 more minutes doing your pits?

I dunno why, but they seem to have the same mindset, be in the sea-life, and any other minutia in that rule class. That was the connection. Sorry for the spastic leap, but hope you can see it now.

PS: the other encounter I had with these types, was at Lover's Point years ago, doing a pit. Some busy-body leaned over the railing, and asked "what are you doing". At first, I just gave the canned answers (that we all give to curious folks), and didn't pay them much attention. But they kept asking things like "are you going to fill that in when you're done?". It was at that point, that I realized they had no interest in the hobby, or what I was finding, but rather "is he violating a rule?" type of talk. I looked up, and could see them conferring with another person up on the walk. I over-heard one say to the other "well, I guess it depends on what he finds". That was scary. I mean, why do they care what I find?

As it turns out, I was almost done that day, so I covered my pit, and left. I didn't see those people as I left, so no telling where that encounter may have gone. It wasn't until Carraig and I's encounter with the sea-lion civilian patrol groupie lady, that I made the connection. I found out from some city staff about their Sierra Club, or whatever, patrols they do. So there is your connection T in SM.

P.P.S.: I should add, that, when I argued with the sea-lion lady that the sea lion she was pointing to, was way far away, and that we weren't bothering him, she started grasping for straws (she had a harbor-patrol in tow with her by this time), and shifted the subject to: "well... you shouldnt' be doing that here" (referring to metal detecting in general). There may have been an issue as to the beach we were standing on, since it's a spit of stand between the wharfs, but I didn't dare try to clarify if she meant md'ing in general, or just whether this beach, in general, was public. That was the LAST thing I wanted to have clarified. But the point is, you can see how fast the subject got changed to md'ing as a specific. I surmise that when they have their granola meetings each week, the more people they can say "they educated", the higher up you go in the peer system. Like a cop that doesn't give out tickets, his superiors might wonder if he's doing his job. Same psychology here.

[TinSM]

Gee, I sure wasn't trying to cause a ruckus (sorry, Ralphie). Ya'll make good points, I agree in the main with most if not all of them. I already had my say on one point in particular, and have no reason to carry-on further regarding it. Besides, I've turned over a new leaf (yeah, right) - from to

Besides, Salinas offered to bet me a twelve-pack of beer on a bet I'd probably lose under the circumstances described, yet the Apex of Humanity doesn't drink beer and this ape of humanity does, and so long as MT (a guzzlemonkey in his own right) isn't there to see me lose the bet on MT's secret beach, well, I get to both lose the bet and drink the beer I lost. My luck has been pretty good today, found a '42 Merc, so Hmmm, let me think about that bet.

[RALPH]

Wane.....

We have some educated heavyweights
banging heads here, (with the exception
of one jerk, n' he just sees this thread as
an opportunity to pat himself on the back)

The others are steadfast, resolute in there
convictions, and willing to express themselves,
and doing so quit eloquently I might add........

My intentions weren't to stir the pot, I was only
making an observation, and expressing delight....

Since my resent skirmish with the delete button,
I've been trying to keep a low profile.. n' it ain't easy........

Come on Tommy, fire one more salvo..

"Guzzlemonkey" ........... your too much..........

R~

[StocktonMartin aka #2]

I do believe that most laws and rules are made in good intention and not to destroy a fun hobby or recreational use of whatever property.

There are some radicals who think government is obsolete. But the result would be total anarchy. Yes, 90% of the people would be just decent normal people without any laws just as they are now with laws.

But without laws and restrictions it would come down to the very basic survival of the strongest. And in this day and time it would mean the one with the biggest gun and the most ruthless.

So laws makes sense in most cases. However, it would be nice if the lawmakers would apply a little more common sense and take in input from legitimite interest groups and not highly paid lobbyists AND not to just make up the laws for themselves as they please.

I would think most people would agree that it is a BAD idea to drill for oil in an Alaska Wildlife refugee. However, a politician just ordered that as well as logging of formerly protected forests. No names need to be mentioned.

Anyhow, before I get too much of track. I think it really comes down to some common sense and us organizing and giving our input to the deciding bodies.

This might still be hard, time consuming and frustrting, but it is the only way. It also means we need to make sure that everybody engaged in our hobby complies with the laws and common sense. Fill up your holes etc. Just use common sense and we ourselves should enforce those rules among ourselves.

Several months ago I noticed 2 guys at Wino Park in Stockton who tossed all dug crap (mostly caps) just aside, after recovering. I was going to say something, but they looked shady as they were and I did not have the balls to mention something.
Only later did I realize I could have gotten their licence plate and posted them on here so everybody else could look out for them and maybe someone HAS the balls to confront them (hey, I am jut a wuss, nothing you can do about it, lol).

Anyhow. This got a bit long.

One final word though. I might be mistaken, but I think coins and currency does not fall under the antiquities law. So even if you find it LEGALLY in a protected historical area, you can keep it and not report it.

HH
Martin

[TominSalinasCA]

Martin, yes, AARPA does exclude "coins and bullets" as examples of things that are not unique, irreplacable, etc.... But others read the text differently, to mean, "coins and bullets newer than 50 yrs. old". But we digress. AARPA has been discussed on other threads, and md'rs will be on the loosing end of the stick, if it came to push and shove. Not that I wouldn't fight it, and try to make our understanding of the words to our favor. But we won't fight, unless cornered. Better to be invisible. That's why night hunting is so fun. No busy bodies, peace and quiet, etc...

[StocktonMartin aka #2]

TominSalinas,
I agree. Keeping a low profile is always the best idea.
That's one reason why I always tell people not to advertise their finds too much.
Next thing you know you have 20 people plowing a park, where as 2-3 wouldn't rarely be noticed.
20 at a time might be a whole different issue.
Unfortuantely the spots we hunt are hard to not be noticed at. Parks being my main hunting grounds (once I get my health back together). Just seem always someobody around.
Those laws are held very general so they leave room to interpretation for the interpretor. Being it a cop, park ranger or in the worst case scenario a judge.
That is why we need to give more input whereever we can. Compare it to hunting. Though I am not into killing animals for fun therefore don't know MUCH about that I understand it works this way: Hunting usually is allowed in allocated areas and under a set of very strict rules.
Why not do the same for metal detecting?
I would LOVE to hunt the Presidio in SF, but it is off limits simply because some big kahoona said so and made it a law. Why not allow it under very strict rules?
We all know there is no harm done, if done right.
But if you talk to someone un educated about MDing what do they think? They think about some whacko geeks with weed whacker look alike machines who dig gigantic holes in these precious recreational or what not areas. It is just a matter of educating the lawmakers. They still might not listen, but it would ake much more sense.
Let's face it, Humans do need laws and rules to live by. We are just too friggin insane not to have that enforced on us. LOL....
Anyhow.
Tree hugging is not a bad thing. Most people have NO IDEA what they are doing to the environment by simply enjoying their CIVIL RIGHTS. A plastic bag buried in nature will NOT rot at all!! A pint of oil can poisin I don't know how many 100s or 1000s of gallons of sea water.
Back in Germany where I am from people are made much more aware of these issues.
My home state has the highest recycling rate of non reusable beverage containers with over 70%. How much do we get paid for it? Nothing. People just do it because they are made awareof the importance.
Our recycling system CRV style is so much more efficient.
You actually pay up to 50 cents per plastic bottle in CRV but you get it ALL back. Every store selling those beverages HAS to take back the containers and pay you the full CRV back. Makes sure it does not end up in the environment.
I know this has not much to do with the initial post any more. But it is sickening to see how common it is here to take nature and the environment for granted and do nothing about preserving or restoring it.
Anyway.
Time to hit the mattress.
HH
Martin

[StocktonMartin aka #2]

Oh one more thing.
Someone asked or questioned the existence of an Anti MDing ordinance for GGP.
I don't think anyone responded to it.
So here is my piece of info I heard from someone else.
MDing was not outlawed in the past. Then at some time I believe it was the 80s. Someone found a VERY expensive coin in GGP. Something in the quarter million bucks range.
And this moron (sorry, if the moron is part of the board, but you are still a moron) had nothing better to do then get the media into it and blast it all over the bay area, what he found.
Next thing you know you have a modern age gold rush with entire battalions of MDers turning GGP upside down. Leaving holes every where and basically destroying wide areas of turf.
To stop this madness the city or park people made the anti MDing law and it got enforced.
After things calmed down and only the occasional and very responsible MDer hit GGP the cops figured it is more a hassle and disruption from their coffee and doughnut break to enforce the law, which as I understand is still in effect today.
This again comes down to a very basic rule of Treasure Hunting. Actually Karl von Mueller the famous treasure hunter even put it in his book/s.
IF YOU FIND SOMETHING GOOD SHUT THE ^%&% UP AND DON'T TELL ANYONE ABOUT IT!!!!
Just my 2 wheat cents worth of humble opinion.
HH
Martin

[TominSalinasCA]

Martin, what are the specifics of the story about GGP? I've never heard that before. What was found that was so valuable?